Naval Ravikant on The Joe Rogan Experience - Insights and Takeaways
Who: Naval Ravikant
Where: The Joe Rogan Experience
What: Being Happy, Getting Rich, Rise of Artificial Intelligence, Universal Basic Income, Future of Social Media, How to Meditate, How to Retire, and much, much more!
When: June 4, 2019
How Long: 2 hours, 12 minutes
How to Access: YouTube, Spotify
Naval Ravikant appeared on The Joe Rogan Experience in June 2019, for an extremely information-dense, and yet somehow strangely calming, almost meditative conversation.
Naval is best known for articulating his timeless principles of wealth creation, which he originally share in a Tweetstorm titled ‘How to get rich without getting lucky’. He later turned each tweet in that series into a longer conversation on his website and podcast.
In this conversation with Joe Rogan, Naval gets into the weeds of some of those principles. But what makes this conversation fascinating is that we get to see a behind-the-scenes journey of how Naval arrived at those principles. Joe gets Naval to share his thought process, and we get to see not just what he thinks, but how he thinks.
Of course, this being a Joe Rogan podcast, we do get into some cultural and ideological discussions, but they all feel organic, and in service to the broader themes. Also, bear in mind that this conversation happened in June 2019; that’s about three years before AI-driven large language models such as Chat GPT come into public consciousness in mid-2022. Hearing this conversation with the benefit of that hindsight is terrific, because we now get to evaluate if Naval’s thoughts on the subject have stood the test of time. Spoiler alert: they have!
A Brief Overview of the Conversation
The conversation opens casually with Naval talking a little bit about his life’s journey, and exchanging anecdotes with Joe about fame. Joe then asks him about his Tweet-storm on getting rich, which is when the conversation really cracks open. Naval gives a brief overview of his principles, and stresses on the importance of being calm and happy as almost a precursor to being the kind of person who can generate wealth.
Naval then dives deeper into one of his principles of wealth creation: owning a business, or a piece of it, that accrues to you. This point naturally feeds into the evolution and future of work: Naval believes that we’ll all work for ourselves eventually. That leads to some fascinating back-and-forth around the threat of increasing automation, the idea of universal basic income, and the state of artificial general intelligence.
We then move to the pros and cons of modern social media. Naval shares his thoughts on how the social media companies are risking their own futures by picking ideological sides, how their algorithms are programming our culture, and what we, as consumers of social media, can do to not be chewed out by the machinery.
That leads to a discussion on achieving a calm state of mind through meditation, and because meditation is such a personal activity, Naval talks about how he approaches it. We then get us a behind-the-scenes look at how Naval thinks, and how he consumes information. The conversation concludes, perhaps aptly, with a discussion on what it means to retire in today’s world, and how to do so effectively.
Mind Map
Like I said earlier, this is podcast is extremely information-dense. The conversation moves at break-neck pace as each theme branches out into multiple sub-themes, and one of those becomes the base for the next big theme. All of this feels completely organic, and Naval’s positive, calming energy is infectious, but there’s still a whole lot to unpack.
Here’s a mind map of Naval Ravikant’s interview on The Joe Rogan Experience.
Click here (or on the mind map itself) to view a high resolution PDF version.
Click here (or scroll to the bottom of this page) to view a simple, text-based version of this map. That version also contains a couple of bonus topics that aren’t on the mind map.
Memorable Quotes
Naval’s unique combination of high intellect, calm demeanor, and the rare ability to break down complex subjects into smaller, easier to digest pieces is on full display in this conversation, and he drops a bunch of memorable quotes throughout. Here are some of my favorites:
I would rather read the best 100 books over and over again until I’ve absorbed them, rather than read all the books.
You want to be rich and anonymous, not poor and famous.
When there’s a crisis going on, you wanna be the calmest, coolest cucumber in the room, who also figures out the correct answer.
If you’re so smart, how come you’re not happy?
Desire is a contract that you make with yourself, to be unhappy until you get what you want.
You’re not gonna get rich renting out your time.
We’re solving deterministic, closed-set, finite problems, using large amounts of data, but it’s not sexy to talk about that.
I do believe that automation, over a long enough period of time, will replace every non-creative job, or every non-creative work. But that’s great news! That means that all of our basic needs are taken care of, and what remains for us is to be creative.
Socialism comes from the heart; capitalism comes from the head. When you’re young, if you’re not a socialist, you have no heart. When you’re older, if you’re not a capitalist, you have no head.
I always like Naseem Taleb’s framing on this, where he said, ‘With my family, I’m a communist. With my close friends, I’m a socialist. At my state level politics, I’m a democrat. At higher levels, I’m a republican. At the federal level, I’m a libertarian.’
If you want to see who rules over you, see who you’re not allowed to criticize.
People who get easily outraged are the stupidest people on social media.
The good news is that physical sciences have reality on their side. At the end of the day, your aircraft still has to fly, your microprocessor still has to compute.
If all of your beliefs line up in to one political party, you’re not a clear thinker.
I think it was Pascal who said, ‘All of man’s problems arise because he cannot sit by himself in a room for 30 minutes alone’.
Being poor can make you unhappy, but being rich is not gonna make you happy.
Peace is happiness at rest; happiness is peace in motion.
There are no ‘get rich quick’ schemes; that’s just somebody else trying to get rich off of you.
Retirement is when you stop sacrificing today for some imaginary tomorrow.
Your real resume is just a catalog of all your suffering.
Life is really a single player game; it’s all going on in your head.
Confucius had this great saying, ‘Every man has two lives, and the second starts when he realizes he has just one’.
Happy thoughts disappear out of your head automatically; it’s very easy to let go of them. Negative thoughts linger.
Meetings should really be phone calls. Phone calls should be emails. Emails should just be texts.
Pop Culture and Other References
There are only a handful of references to pop culture and other external sources in this conversation.
Movies
Theories and Thought Experiments
Key Insights
If the mad map is too visually distracting for you, here’s a text-based outline of the key insights from this conversation. This section also contains a couple of bonus topics that aren’t on the mind map.
Being Multi-Varied
When you combine things you’re not supposed to combine, people pay attention
Circus - Bear (somewhat interesting), unicycle (somewhat interesting), bear on a unicycle (REALLY interesting)
Bruce Lee - striking thoughts, philosophy, martial arts
Joe Rogan - UFC commentator, comedian, podcaster, father, lover, thinker
Most humans are multi-varied, but we get summarized in pithy ways
Greatest artists and creators have the ability to reinvent themselves and start over
You have to be willing to be a fool, because reinventions might misfire
Elon Musk, Madonna, Paul Simon, U2
Happiness
Happiness is a choice, and something you can learn
Make a conscious self-commitment, and a social commitment to being happy
Humans have a need to be consistent with their past pronouncements
When you’re serious about something (quit drinking, start a business, be fit, be happy), make a social commitment to it
Optimism is the way to go
Almost everything in life can be interpreted in positive and negative ways
Happy thoughts disappear from our minds automatically, while negative thoughts linger
If you interpret the positive in a seemingly negative experience, you’ll let it go
There are very few exceptions to this
High suffering events are difficult to interpret positively
Those moments can be teachers in life
Be careful about your desires
Desire is a contract that you make with yourself, to be unhappy until you get what you want
When you’re unhappy, look for what underlying desire is not being fulfilled
Pick one overwhelming desire and pursue it
Let go of other, smaller desires
Happiness is about peace of mind
A happy, calm, peaceful person will make better decisions, and have better outcomes
Most people who’re unhappy are very busy in their minds
You can’t be a high performance athlete if you can’t control your body
You can’t be effective at business if you can’t control your mind
Getting Rich
You’re not gonna get rich renting out your time
Own a piece of business to gain financial freedom
Be an owner
Be an investor
Be a shareholder
Build a brand that accrues to you
Outputs are not linear
How hard you work is important, but it doesn’t solely dictate your output
Factors that impact output more than hard work
What you do
Who you do it with
How you do it
How work evolved over time
Hunter-gatherers worked for themselves
Farming age made us slightly hierarchical, running family farms
Industrial age created modern hierarchies of bosses and schedules to manage thousands of workers
Informational age will reverse the industrial age model of employment
Coase Theorem - why is a company the size that it is
Depends on how hard it is to do a transaction with someone externally vs internally
Information technology is making it easier to communicate, collaborate and co-operate externally
We’re seeing the optimal size of a firm shrink
In the near future, high quality work will be available as gig-economy
People will organize on project-basis, rather than full-time jobs
Similar to how Hollywood already works today
This will allow us to go back to working for ourselves
A modern knowledge worker is an intellectual athlete, and needs to function like an athlete
Train
Sprint
Rest
Reassess
Train more
Loop continues
Universal Basic Income
Does increasing automation call for universal basic income?
Automation has been happening since the dawn of time
Electricity, printing press
Automation frees people up for new, creative jobs that are impossible to predict
YouTuber, podcaster, video game commentator
Problems with universal basic income
Slippery slide transfer to socialism
If you give people $15k a year, they’ll happily vote for the person who promised them $20k
It’s only a matter of time before the bottom 51% votes to get everything from the top 49%
De-incentivizes entrepreneurs, which shrinks GDP, which reduces the pool from which to provide this money, bankrupts country
People need meaning in life, not just handouts
You need to figure out who needs how much
Alternatives to universal basic income
Provide a basic set of subsistence services
Housing
Food
Transportation
Internet access
Mobile phone
Build a state-sponsored adult re-education program
Give people the option to get re-trained in professional skills with earning potential
People can take it every ‘x’ years, sponsored by the state
Requires individuals to put in effort, and gives them meaning
Rise of Artificial Intelligence
We’re far from artificial general intelligence
Most advances in AI today are narrow pattern recognition
We’re solving deterministic, closed-set, finite problems, using large amounts of data
Nothing approaching creative thinking or modeling general intelligence of a human brain
We don’t fully understand how the brain works ourselves
We assume that all activity in the brain happens at the cellular level, but activity within the cell is currently unaccounted for
Modeling brain activity based on switching neurons on or off is overly simplistic
No such thing as general intelligence
Every intelligence is contextual
Dumping information into a system isn’t enough
It needs an environment in which it can operate, receive feedback, and develop context
Burden of proof of demonstrating general AI is on those who’re peddling it
Socialism vs Capitalism
Socialism
Problems with socialism
Equality of outcomes
Cannot be achieved without violence
Works best with smaller groups where trust is high
Kibbutz
Commune
Tribe
Family
Capitalism
Problems with capitalism
Monopolies
Crony capitalism
Banks and other institutions that privatize gains and socialize losses
Works best with larger groups
Equality of opportunity
Specialization of labor
Free markets and free trade
Counters problems that come with large groups
Lack of trust in strangers
More potential of cheating
Social Media
Social media has turned us all into mini-celebrities
Rather than looking at ourselves objectively, we now think about how other people see us
Complements boost our egos, but a small number of hurtful comments can cancel that out and tear down our self-image
Ability to broadcast has its pros and cons
People can now call attention to large-scale societal injustices
People also wage stupid culture wars, assemble virtual mobs, and harass somebody they disagree with
Some people get addicted to absorbing breaking news with clickbait headlines, and it drives them insane
Best minds of our generation are developing algorithms to get you addicted
People will eventually find ways to deal with this
If somebody’s social media is full of outrage, you probably don’t want to associate with that person
Newer generations that grow up with this stuff will be able to cope with it better
The only real solution is to switch it off
Social media companies
People developing algorithms for social media companies are among the most powerful people in the world today
They control the spread of information, thereby programming the culture
The inner workings of these algorithms are hidden
If they were smarter, they wouldn’t have picked sides in culture wars
They should’ve stayed neutral, and acted only when something illegal was posted on their platforms
When they started taking taking down legal content based on ideology, they lost their right to be viewed as a carrier
Short-term, they will be hauled in for hearings as politicians from both sides try to suppress the other side
Medium-term, the government will seek to control them more and more
Long-term, they will be replaced by de-centralized media not owned by a single entity
Meditation
Mediation is the art of doing nothing
Enjoying being alone, without any external stimulus, is a superpower
Sit down, close your eyes, be comfortable, and go with the flow
Don’t put any effort into or against thinking, or concentrating, or breathing in a certain way
Mediation begins when you’re at peace with yourself
As we go through life, we process some experiences fully, while ignoring some other experiences
When you’re by yourself, those unresolved issues resurface in your mind
You need to process those issues one by one, until you get to the magical ‘inbox zero’
You don’t even need to necessarily resolve those issues, but just think them through
Mediation begins when you achieve this peaceful state by processing internal issues from your past
External factors will not bring you peace
How to Think
We all have gaps in our thinking that we ignore
When we write or speak about it, we’re forced to complete those gaps
Strategies to overcome gaps in our thinking
Build a solid foundation of understanding
Learn the basics from ground up, instead of memorizing advanced concepts
Memorizing is natural, but it is also a sign that you don’t fully understand the concept
Learn to read effectively
Read books to satisfy your genuine intellectual curiosity, not to complete them
Look for interesting ideas, and when you find them, research and reflect on them
Retirement
Retirement is when you stop sacrificing today for an imaginary tomorrow
Three paths to retirement
Have enough money saved up, so that your passive income covers your expenses
Drive your expenses down to zero
Do something you love, where it doesn’t feel like work
Modern society rewards creative work
Create something that society doesn’t even know it wants yet, and doesn’t know how get other than through you
Most powerful money makers today are individuals who’ve built their brands
They find things they know how to do better than anybody, because they love doing it
They figure out a way to map it to what society needs
They put their name on it, so they own the risks, but also reap the rewards
Bonus Topic 1: Corruption of Universities
Universities gained the mantle of authority in our society due to achievements hard sciences
We took scientists to be the high-priests of modern society
Over time, social scientists snuck in and became the new think tanks
Universities are seeing a war between hard sciences and social sciences
Biology is the major battleground, and will likely suffer greatly
Many important topics get corrupted
Immigration
Gun control
Nature vs nurture
Climate change
Bonus Topic 2: Environmental Issues
Modern environmentalist movement
They identify the correct problem
We have one planet, with finite resources
Their solution of slowing down growth is a non-starter
Three billion Indians and Chinese aren’t going to give up economic growth and stay in poverty
The primary solution is building green technology that is cost-competitive
Subsidize in the short- to medium-term
Innovate and educate in the long-term
Need to innovate on nuclear energy
The safest way to do this is on another planet
Deforestation of Amazon is a great example
Easy to criticize poor Brazilian farmers who’re doing this, but their survival depends on it
Those who’re serious about this issue should build, promote and sponsor eco-tourism in Amazon
Give governments and pharmaceutical companies the incentive to preserve it
Sell them future rights for patents on pharmaceuticals that come out of the forests